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Clear Our Your Desk -- We've Got Apu Now
January 29th 2004, 17:42 CET by Caryn

For those who hate discussion about what affects the U.S., I apologize for the U.S.-centric nature of this topic. But I'm assuming this isn't just affecting the U.S., so I'm curious to hear from people outside of the U.S. on this.

My dad's been working as a CAD designer on chips for a couple of decades now. He's worked for Digital, IBM, Harris Semiconductor, and most recently Intel, working on their next-generation processors. But that was a year ago. When his contract with Intel came up for renewal a year ago, they chose not to. Since then he's been looking for more work in his industry and he can't find it, because all the jobs have now gone to India. It's been over a year now, so he's decided the tech industry doesn't have room for him anymore, and he's looking at other options for work.

Wired has an article about this very subject. While this was also linked at Slashdot, I was really interested in getting some discussion about it here, and I mean real discussion. I didn't create this topic to complain about said jobs going to India. I'm curious about discussing some of the things that the article -- which is very good -- brings up. Things like, how do you think this will effect the US economy in both the near and far future? What do you think about the article's assertion that the next phase for the US, now that we've moved out of both agriculture and industry, is one of discovery and innovation? Do you think this is going to affect the gap between the very, very rich and the current middle class?

To inject a little personal opinion into the topic, I'm torn on this issue. My dad has been directly affected by this, and I can see what it's done to him personally to find that no one wants to hire him, and for him to have to go looking for a new job in something he's not interested in or trained to do. On the other hand, I find that people who are trying to pass laws against outsourcing are ridiculous -- no one, including Americans, has a god-given right to these jobs. The world changes, and this is something that's a natural part of a global economy. And somewhere in the middle, I'm concerned about these changes occuring too fast for Americans to keep up with and how that's going to affect the current middle class. But when all is said and done, I believe what the article says when it talks about these type of changes having occured in the past and been for the greater good, despite individuals losing their jobs.

What do you think?
C O M M E N T S
Home » Topic: Clear Our Your Desk -- We've Got Apu Now

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#90 by Bailey
2004-01-29 19:57:31
Canadian.

Life without shame.
#91 by Shadarr
2004-01-29 19:57:43
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I love that new FedEx ad where the guy says "I don't do shipping... I have an MBA"  and the woman says "Oh, then I'll have to show you how to do it."

Part of the reason for all the outsourcing hype and other unsound decisions is that corporations, and the MBA's that run them, are totally focused on making the next quarter's numbers and don't give much thought at all to what will benefit the company five years from now.  By outsourcing the dev team a company can save $80,000 per programmer (PNOOMA) but a year from now, the product will be quantitatively worse than it is now and sales will plummet.
#92 by Squeaky
2004-01-29 19:58:23
#88 yotsuya
My wife and I are looking to buy a $210,000 home on a quarter-acre home with the Estralla Mountains in the background. 5 bedroom, a den, house professionally wired for sound, video, and internet... It'll cost $1500 a month. We're strongly considering it.

Can I move in with you?

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#93 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:00:24
#82 Your Friend
I'm a "Senior Software Engineer".  The kind of person whose job will be going to India, never to return, any day now.  

Also, the number may seem a lot larger than it is in practice depending upon where you live; just like the idea of $200,000 house seems quaint to me.

Very true.  Cost of living generally has a huge impact on salaries.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#94 by Hoe Muffin
2004-01-29 20:00:54
poontanger@hotmail.com
Sure. When the colonies gained independence the colonial powers withdrew their forces only in exchange for very favorable trade agreements and loans of huge sums of money to sustain and expand infrastructure and whatnot. Hence the huge debts of third world countries. Latest horror-number I saw was about 8 dollars going out of the indebted countries for every one dollar of foreign aid and/or investment. (No source, feel free to ignore that number, I guess.)

This has forced third world governments into a very weak negotiation position, where western nations strong-arm them into opening up their national resources and work-force for hideous exploitation. When western interests says jump, debtors jump - no matter how bad the consequences in the long-run. The oil-fields in Nigeria comes to mind.


Of course, one argument one might make is that this is an example of how globalism still is justified in theory, but not in practice. Then again, if it is no good in practice, then it can't be a particularly useful theory.

However, I would like to stress that foreign debt is not necessarily the cause of meltdowns, rather it is largely due to poor lending by banks, corruption in the government, and of course, speculators attacking the currency. It is true that the WTO organization, and all the meetings in Doha, Cancun, etc. were set up to mediate tariff's and the like, but until the rich nations budge on agricultural policies (which are despicable) that protect their farmers, the poorest nations will continue to be hurt. That being said, I would argue that human rights conventions as well as public pressure from the home front has prevented Western countries from committing the attrocities of the British Empire during the peak of its colonialization phase. And I believe that in the aggregate, globalization, even in its imperfect form, has been a strong tool in reducing the overall level of absolute poverty: A report from the World Bank in 2001 appears to indicate as much.

If you're so inclined, you can purchase it here:

http://econ.worldbank.org/prr/structured_doc.php?sp=2477&st=&sd=2857

The Economist has a quickie summary of the topic:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=898112
#95 by yotsuya
2004-01-29 20:01:06
Squeak-

Only if you feed the dogs, throw out the garbage, and become our security ninja.

Keep in that there are 6 of us in my family, so we NEED the room.

That's a beautiful way to go. Shot by Yot. In more ways than one. -mgns
#96 by Bailey
2004-01-29 20:02:20
Shadarr

That commercial made me question my consideration of getting a business degree. An MBA barely seems to get your foot in the door these days, everyone wants 3-5 years experience at a single location.

Life without shame.
#97 by Shadarr
2004-01-29 20:05:32
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Squeaky,

If you want to buy a nice house for $150,000 CDN, move to Edmonton.  Personally, I think the cost of living here is worth it for the quality of life. But there is a certain allure to knowing that I could buy a house right now if I moved there.
#98 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:06:18
MBA looks like A+ looks like MCSE looks like DBA looks like CBT to a hiring manager.  You can list bullet points all day, but your experience and references will speak volumes more than any degree will.  It's been my experience that not all hiring departments realize this, but that an effective one will.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#99 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-29 20:11:44
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#97 Shadarr
Squeaky,

If you want to buy a nice house for $150,000 CDN, move to Edmonton.  Personally, I think the cost of living here is worth it for the quality of life. But there is a certain allure to knowing that I could buy a house right now if I moved there.

The drawback being, Edmonton.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#100 by Matt Perkins
2004-01-29 20:15:42
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
MBA looks like A+ looks like MCSE looks like DBA looks like CBT to a hiring manager.  You can list bullet points all day, but your experience and references will speak volumes more than any degree will.  It's been my experience that not all hiring departments realize this, but that an effective one will.


Of course, that depends upon the place.  I know places where MCSD is a god and places where College grads are shunned.  Each person has different ideas what works for them on a resume.

Personally, I'd agree.  I just went through a mess of resumes at my company and we hired some of them.  The ones we hired all had to show, before I'd even call them, that they had the experience I needed.  Of course, I was looking for specific key words and years with them, so some people sometimes slightly over estimated their skills.

"Good, good. Now, and here is where I'm going with this - I'll be fucked if I can remember how to farm."
- LP
#101 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:20:14
I think one major problem with companies these days is that they don't test people on their knowledge anymore.  Anyone who puts "Adobe Photoshop" on their resume should be required to come in and create something as part of the application process.  At the very start, give them 10 minutes to make a beveled button.  If they can't make the button, tell them to take a hike.  If they can, you can commence with your list of irrelevant and pointless leading questions that are designed to test personality more than actual skill.  I see way too many people who lie their asses off on their resume and work for months before someone realizes it.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#102 by Ashiran
2004-01-29 20:22:24
Rant follows:

The sad truth is ladies and gentlemen is that companies don't care about you the populace. They are only interested in extending their own existence. Ofcourse that's not what companies are for. Companies are here to supply you, the consumer, with (new) products so that we may create a continiously better world for ourselves. To ensure this noble cause keeps in motion it requires that the company doesn't go out of buisness.

Right...? Wrong.

You see according to free market theory any company that can't pull his weight is replaced by a new better one. So the production keeps existing anyway. However at some point in time for whatever reason companies became obsessed with "immortality". We all know that managment can and will ensure their survival by any means necessary. Even if this means conjuring money out of thin air a.k.a FRAUD. As you may be able to tell I'm opposed to any form of government aid for non goverment controlled companies.

Now while it's a company's good right to cut down costs by any legal means necessary I don't approve of outsourcing. While it's more money for the company it's less money for the nation as a whole. But then we come back to the first part again, companies don't care about you. Seeing this is pretty much a stable fact nowadays we can't blame them anymore. So who do we blame?

We blame you, the populace! You see, the populace elects the government and the governments they elect are usually quite clueless on what is best for their people. I'm actually of the belief that a whole slew of politicians (both in the US and Europe) have absolutly NO IDEA what a government exactly is for. They think it's about preventing bad things and promoting good things. It's not. It's about making sure your populace is taken care of, at a level fitting of your nation, AT ALL TIMES. To get back to the losts jobs part, it's not the governments task to create/keep jobs, it's the governments task to keep you afloat at a certain point. And that's the real problem here. People stare themselves blind on the number of jobs and therefore cry havoc when they vanish. Which isn't strange because if you are jobless for an extended period in this capitalist society you are fucked.

And being jobless will only get worse and worse for everyone, more and more things will be automated, more and more knowledge will be needed to have a unique position. If you're old, you're out of luck. If your knowledge is common now, you're out of luck. If you are somehow handicapped, you're out of luck. Nowadays there are always people or machines who work cheaper and/or better then you. So only jobs with very specialist deep knowlegde will stay. And a simple fact is that only a small number of people are intelligent enough to do such jobs.

The Wire article has a women asking what comes after knowledge in the farm, factory, knowledge train. If you read that as "basic knowledge, partial automation, advanced knowledge" I think you can see what comes next. That's right. FULL AUTOMATION. Outsourcing is just a slide. When everyone is made rich because of outsourcing the only way to do things cheaply will be with machines. And the capitalist society (with its completly dependency on people having jobs) will be completly unable to absorb this even though it's racing towards it at ever increasing speed. It's high time people to shape up and change the century old system and replace it with something more fitting like a Neo Essentialist (not to be confused with Essentialism) state or something.

Please disagree.
/Rant

"Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
#103 by Trolly McTroll
2004-01-29 20:22:31
"I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big campfires. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting out babies.

"I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

"I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers.The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America.  Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens.  Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

"I have the right 'NOT' to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

"When 70% of the people who get arrested are black,  in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.

"I know what sex is, and there are not varying degrees of it. If  I received sex from one of my subordinates in my office, it  wouldn't be a private matter or my personal business.  I would be  'FIRED' immediately!

"I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake,  a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English!  As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should  have to speak English!

"My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours.  I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop.  
If you can't understand the word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the above lines.

"I feel much safer letting a machine with no political affiliation recount votes when needed.  I know what the definition of lying is.

"I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

"We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

"I don't hate the rich.  I don't pity the poor. I know pro wrestling Is fake, but so are movies and television.  That doesn't stop you from watching them.

"I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.

"I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every  penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you.

"It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say 'NO!'

"I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement.  And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals.  I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!

"I am sick of 'Political Correctness.'  I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be 'African-Americans'?  Besides, Africa is a continent.  I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe.  I am proud to be from America and
nowhere else.

You Know You Envy the soul of Trolly McTroll
#104 by chris
2004-01-29 20:22:39
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
We test people. I specifically developed two HTML tests for all of our potential web employees, from jr. to sr. level. Most other companies I'm familiar with do similar things.

-chris
#105 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-29 20:25:50
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#104 chris
We test people. I specifically developed two HTML tests for all of our potential web employees, from jr. to sr. level. Most other companies I'm familiar with do similar things.

-chris

Are these tests you have to complete while sitting there in the interview, or can you do them on your own time and send them in?  It seems to me that the first way is sort of pointless ... the focus should be on the persons ability to problem solve, not recall information off the top of their heads.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#106 by Trolly McTroll
2004-01-29 20:26:46
#101 Jibble
At the very start, give them 10 minutes to make a beveled button. If they can't make the button, tell them to take a hike. If they can, you can commence with your list of irrelevant and pointless


The problem is most middle managers are not experienced themselves and either got that job by sucking dick or humping ass and are too afraid and stupid to ask the proper questions to begin with.

You Know You Envy the soul of Trolly McTroll
#107 by Trolly McTroll
2004-01-29 20:28:38
#105 Warren Marshall
#104 chris
We test people. I specifically developed two HTML tests for all of our potential web employees, from jr. to sr. level. Most other companies I'm familiar with do similar things.

-chris

Are these tests you have to complete while sitting there in the interview, or can you do them on your own time and send them in?  It seems to me that the first way is sort of pointless ... the focus should be on the persons ability to problem solve, not recall information off the top of their heads.


and that is why you're not an HR executive and push pixels all day monkey boy

You Know You Envy the soul of Trolly McTroll
#108 by chris
2004-01-29 20:28:48
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Warren -

Tests first. Interview later. We base who we're going to interview on how they handled the tests. The tests are emailed to them, and they can take as much time as they want (within reason... if it takes you three weeks to carve up a site I can do in twenty minutes, you're not right for the job).

-chris
#109 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-29 20:30:12
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#108 chris
Warren -

Tests first. Interview later. We base who we're going to interview on how they handled the tests. The tests are emailed to them, and they can take as much time as they want (within reason... if it takes you three weeks to carve up a site I can do in twenty minutes, you're not right for the job).

-chris

Ah cool.  That's perfect, thanks.

We do the same thing with artists ... we send them an assignment and see (a) how long it takes to complete and (b) how they did it.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#110 by Squeaky
2004-01-29 20:30:13
#97 Shadarr
Squeaky,

If you want to buy a nice house for $150,000 CDN, move to Edmonton.  Personally, I think the cost of living here is worth it for the quality of life. But there is a certain allure to knowing that I could buy a house right now if I moved there.

But I'd have to live in Edmonton.

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#111 by Charles
2004-01-29 20:39:14
www.bluh.org
Living in Edmonton is a fate worse than death.  I know, because I'd choose death before I'd choose to move back to Edmonton.

-chris
#112 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:40:36
#108 chris
Warren -

Tests first. Interview later. We base who we're going to interview on how they handled the tests. The tests are emailed to them, and they can take as much time as they want (within reason... if it takes you three weeks to carve up a site I can do in twenty minutes, you're not right for the job).

-chris

I would think that a reasonable combination of "tests first" and "verification tests during the interview" would be an ideal solution, as it would assure that the applicant had actually done the test on their own.  Seems to me like it would be really easy to weed out shitty coders if you asked them to do a simple <TABLE> layout in hand-coded HTML.  I'm consistently amazed at how many web developers can't actually do a two-column, two-row table with some spanning by hand.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#113 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 20:45:08
The problems with the economy go far beyond the concept of outsourcing.  At the root of the evil is America's arbitrary system of valuing money, and its cure-all behavior of just printing more and trying hard not to cause a huge rise in inflation that makes everything come crumbling down.

Money needs to be backed by something with a specific value.  We're kept afloat, more often than not, by manipulations of value that are based in nothing more than the notion that we need to get things to a certain place, and what values should we move around to get there.  The problem is, this type of behavior is by its nature, destructive to a stable economy and there's really no stopping it once you've been doing it for awhile.  It's sort of like a drug addict that continues to use after he no longer enjoys or receives the high, just because he cannot tolerate the withdrawls.

Ignoring all of the legal and constitutional issues concerning America's banking system, it's just a bad idea.  It's fine if you do indeed have a global economy that is all under the same umbrella, and the dollar has acted as that umbrella since the beginning but it can't sustain things forever.

That said, I am completely opposed to a "global economy" and one world government concepts - and I don't understand this strange compulsion to constantly change everything.  Concepts and methods that have proven themselves to be sound and positive should not be abandoned for the sake of some idealistic and flawed concept that all the world should unite under one banner, or at least have completely open boarders for trade.

Tax stuff coming in, tax stuff coming out, cut deals where it has to, and keep the boarders of the country safe and relationships with other countries beneficial with that money - this is the role of the national government, or should be anyway.  The government has no business aiding, funding, underwriting, or in any other way supporting the private sector and the individuals and businesses within it.  However, it does have business with keeping its wealth at home and so wouldn't be likely to allow outsourcing of any sort just for the sake of saving a company money.

The answer is not more government, more socialism inspired policies, or any sort of federal regulation of domestic affairs.  We have the most liberal of american presidents in recent history in office right now under the guise of being a conservative.  The country's already been fooled by this, though, so my hope of people ever waking up and working to reverse the trend towards complete governmental control of the citizenry grows smaller every damned day.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#114 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:48:42
#113 UncleJeet
We have the most liberal of american presidents in recent history in office right now under the guise of being a conservative.

What?

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#115 by Duality
2004-01-29 20:49:33
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
From the article ...
She looks at me. Then she says, "I'd like to know where you go from knowledge."

I think the argument on both sides is very valid.

America has gone through changes such as these in the past, and its rebounded with fair success.  But what does come after the IT industry?  This continental shift of white-collar jobs came very suddenly.  Almost no one saw it coming and had time to prepare.  Now we have a lot of IT workers who are out on their ass without jobs and without the money to go back to school to learn a new trade.

I think the ones that are going to weather this the best are the recent IT workers who have a multitude of skillsets -- the ones that went from a business job to a tech job.  They'll continue to be the liasons between technology and executive.

I'm slow to suggest funding for programs for displaced programmers, as it sounds ridiculous, but what is there?  The only other option is to tax the shit out of companies who decide to do outsource, and I'd like to share some of the crack you smoke if you think that's going to happen.

#24 Jibble
I think an interesting question here is this: Would the cost of living would go down if widespread salary cuts happened?

I really don't think so.  I was of the understanding that pay increases happen in direct proportion to the rate of inflation.  Pay cuts across the board, I imagine, would cause an economic depression.  I was also of the understanding that mass economic deflation would be a serious issue, as well.  Though I'm not sure how.  I never took an econ course.

All in all, I agree with Our Friend that legislation really is not necessary.

#101 Jibble
I think one major problem with companies these days is that they don't test people on their knowledge anymore.

I would so appreciate a company that did this.  Looking at a job posting on a website or in the Classifieds almost always tells you dick all about what the company is looking for, exactly.  As well, applying for a job that did that would give me the chance to test my current skills to what the job market is often looking for.
#116 by Your Friend
2004-01-29 20:50:43
Fiscally liberal.  He spends, spends, spends.  He's made government a lot bigger -- look at the entire Homeland Security Dept.

Comment Signature
#117 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:01:42
#115 Duality
I would so appreciate a company that did this.  Looking at a job posting on a website or in the Classifieds almost always tells you dick all about what the company is looking for, exactly.  As well, applying for a job that did that would give me the chance to test my current skills to what the job market is often looking for.

I used to look in the classifieds for jobs.  Not one worthwhile thing in there to apply for.  Shotgun phone interviews, useless leads, and misleading ads were the norm.  The same applies to online job boards.  Your best bet is to go to a contracting firm (read: temp agency) and work your way up.  If anything, you're moving into a smaller market of people that employers can choose from, so you're more likely to be offered something.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#118 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 21:04:11
Jibble

What YF said.  He's inflated the government to its largest yet, enacted all sorts of neat socialistic type programs, and seems to be unable to say No when it comes to someone asking for some more spending.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#119 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:05:33
Ahh, liberal spending, not liberal policies.  Gotcha.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#120 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 21:11:07
Just for the sake of my curiosity, could you define a liberal policy as well as a conservitive policy?  By define, I mean definition not examples of concepts.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#121 by Duality
2004-01-29 21:21:09
Dualipuff@yahoo.com http://stratoscape.ath.cx/
#117 Jibble
I used to look in the classifieds for jobs.  Not one worthwhile thing in there to apply for.  Shotgun phone interviews, useless leads, and misleading ads were the norm.  The same applies to online job boards.  Your best bet is to go to a contracting firm (read: temp agency) and work your way up.  If anything, you're moving into a smaller market of people that employers can choose from, so you're more likely to be offered something.

What scares me, not just about what you've said, but about this whole topic is the underscore of my own mortality.

After making mistakes at my job at the bank, I understand that I'm far from the top, a mere speck from the best the IT support industry has to offer.  I've never had to work so hard to try and better myself.  I've managed to coast through shit in the past.  It frightens me that I have to adapt or die.

I fear change.

But a temp agency is a good idea.  I'll keep that under advisement.  Contracting is not an option for me.  I'm not a take-charge person, and I really cannot see myself staying afloat with a business controlled by me.
#122 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:22:23
For every definition, there will be examples or concepts for which that definition is not correct.  Hence, I refuse to embark on a journey into the madness that is redefining what liberal and conservative mean.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#123 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:25:57
#121 Duality
Contracting is not an option for me.

In seven words, you've explained the problem with most people who are looking for a job.

When you are unemployed, nothing should be beneath you.  Any job, regardless of how you view yourself through your rose colored glasses, should be good enough for you.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#124 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 21:26:32
Um, ok.  If you can't define it, just say so - it takes a lot less words.  I imagine it'd be pretty tricky to define a "liberal policy" that is independent of "liberal spending" - which is exactly why I challenged you with the task, to illustrate that there is no distinction.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#125 by Shadarr
2004-01-29 21:26:47
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
But I'd have to live in Edmonton.


Err, yeah, I thought I'd covered that when I said I think the cost of living here is worth it for the quality of life.  Or is that just your way of saying I get it!?
#126 by Bailey
2004-01-29 21:29:11
Temp agencies are bias against male receptionists! Or more accurately, the companies they fill positions for.

Life without shame.
#127 by Shadarr
2004-01-29 21:29:16
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I would define a liberal policy as one which benefits the citizens of the country, whereas liberal spending could be reworded as "spending liberally".  Obviously Bush is doing the latter and not the former.
#128 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:30:33
Waiting for Jeet to tell Shadarr that he's wrong...

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#129 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:33:10
#124 UncleJeet
Um, ok.  If you can't define it, just say so - it takes a lot less words.  I imagine it'd be pretty tricky to define a "liberal policy" that is independent of "liberal spending" - which is exactly why I challenged you with the task, to illustrate that there is no distinction.

I will define one right now if you like.

Liberal policy - abortions should legally be the option of the mother of the child.

The spending in this case would be limited to the salary of the lawmakers that put it into effect.  If you wanted to get unnecessarily involved and let the government pay for the abortion, that's a whole other matter.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#130 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 21:33:23
So a conservative policy must be one which harms the citizens of the country?

My point with all of this is that the terms liberal and conservative have been manipulated by both parties and the media and distorted into new meanings.  Liberal means a liberal application of government - a lot.  Conservative means the opposite, it's that simple.  However, the terms have left that idea behind and now speak more to general political philosophies centering around morality and freedoms and such.  That's why you think hippie when you think liberal, and you think jerry falwell when you think conservative.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#131 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 21:34:44
I present to you that legalized abortion is not a liberal application of government, but a conservative one.  To enact policy and enforcement to prevent abortions would be applying government in a liberal fashion.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#132 by Greg
2004-01-29 21:36:24
I thought it was funny when jeet said "Define liberal, but don't use an example", and jibble went right ahead and used an example as the definition.

-DKI(ID
#133 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:38:08
#130 UncleJeet
So a conservative policy must be one which harms the citizens of the country?

My point with all of this is that the terms liberal and conservative have been manipulated by both parties and the media and distorted into new meanings.  Liberal means a liberal application of government - a lot.  Conservative means the opposite, it's that simple.  However, the terms have left that idea behind and now speak more to general political philosophies centering around morality and freedoms and such.  That's why you think hippie when you think liberal, and you think jerry falwell when you think conservative.

So, in other words, the terms no longer mean what they used to?  I don't see the problem here, other than your need to cling to antiquated definitions of terms, you gay faggot*.

*By this, I of course mean that you are a happy bundle of sticks, not that you are a homosexual.  Any offense you take is just due to your newfangled definitions of the words, and I can't be held responsible for that.  Damn media.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#134 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:41:02
At least now we know that everyone here has different definitions for the words "conservative" and "liberal".  I hope that this ends any discussion on the matter because I don't want to try redefining anything like we did with atheism.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#135 by Hugin
2004-01-29 21:42:15
lmccain@nber.org
"Liberal" and "Conservative" have always broken down into functional subsegments of political thought.  Social, fiscal, structural, judicial.  Claiming that it's just about the size of government or the amount of spending is uselessly simplistic.
#136 by Jibble
2004-01-29 21:47:04
#132 Greg
I thought it was funny when jeet said "Define liberal, but don't use an example", and jibble went right ahead and used an example as the definition.

The problem is this:

I imagine it'd be pretty tricky to define a "liberal policy" that is independent of "liberal spending" - which is exactly why I challenged you with the task, to illustrate that there is no distinction.

Jeet ignores the fact that it's okay for "liberal" to mean both "not very limited" and "characteristic of a person with liberal political leanings" in the same sentence.  It's also okay for me to say that a .22 caliber bullet has a high caliber of quality.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#137 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 21:51:20
I disagree, Hugin.  If one is conservative in the application of government, then that will by definition limit one's approach to all of these subsegments of political though that you mention.  It is a generalization yes, and it can easily be argued that you can define people to absurd levels of detail using the words liberal and conservative.  I'm liberal when it comes to mayo, conservative on the mustard.  That intricacy needlessly muddles a process which is already too daunting for most people to completely grasp.

The definitions of the words are simple.  The words you put before or after them don't matter much, whether they be words like fiscal, social, judicial, or words like politically, morally, ethically.  I doubt the understanding of the political process would be helped much by defining a candidate as fiscally liberal, structurally conservative, judicially liberal, socially liberal, morally conservative, ethically conservative, and politically a Republican.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#138 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 21:52:51
Jeet ignores the fact that it's okay for "liberal" to mean both "not very limited" and "characteristic of a person with liberal political leanings" in the same sentence.  It's also okay for me to say that a .22 caliber bullet has a high caliber of quality.


Witness me not ignoring this "fact" - doesn't a person with liberal political leanings mean a person with political leanings toward a government that is not very limited?  I fail to see your point.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#139 by chris
2004-01-29 21:56:06
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
This thread took longer to self-destruct into petty haggling over word definitions than I expected.

-chris
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