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Clear Our Your Desk -- We've Got Apu Now
January 29th 2004, 17:42 CET by Caryn

For those who hate discussion about what affects the U.S., I apologize for the U.S.-centric nature of this topic. But I'm assuming this isn't just affecting the U.S., so I'm curious to hear from people outside of the U.S. on this.

My dad's been working as a CAD designer on chips for a couple of decades now. He's worked for Digital, IBM, Harris Semiconductor, and most recently Intel, working on their next-generation processors. But that was a year ago. When his contract with Intel came up for renewal a year ago, they chose not to. Since then he's been looking for more work in his industry and he can't find it, because all the jobs have now gone to India. It's been over a year now, so he's decided the tech industry doesn't have room for him anymore, and he's looking at other options for work.

Wired has an article about this very subject. While this was also linked at Slashdot, I was really interested in getting some discussion about it here, and I mean real discussion. I didn't create this topic to complain about said jobs going to India. I'm curious about discussing some of the things that the article -- which is very good -- brings up. Things like, how do you think this will effect the US economy in both the near and far future? What do you think about the article's assertion that the next phase for the US, now that we've moved out of both agriculture and industry, is one of discovery and innovation? Do you think this is going to affect the gap between the very, very rich and the current middle class?

To inject a little personal opinion into the topic, I'm torn on this issue. My dad has been directly affected by this, and I can see what it's done to him personally to find that no one wants to hire him, and for him to have to go looking for a new job in something he's not interested in or trained to do. On the other hand, I find that people who are trying to pass laws against outsourcing are ridiculous -- no one, including Americans, has a god-given right to these jobs. The world changes, and this is something that's a natural part of a global economy. And somewhere in the middle, I'm concerned about these changes occuring too fast for Americans to keep up with and how that's going to affect the current middle class. But when all is said and done, I believe what the article says when it talks about these type of changes having occured in the past and been for the greater good, despite individuals losing their jobs.

What do you think?
C O M M E N T S
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#65 by crash
2004-01-29 19:10:09
And in terms of housing, I would be very very pleased to own a house worth $150k in San Antonio.

By this time tomorrow we can be doing BODY SHOTS off HOOKERS in some MEXICAN HELLHOLE
#66 by Your Friend
2004-01-29 19:13:48

"Y'know, I think I make enough money to live comfortably in mediocrity the rest of my days. Booyah, EYE R TEH WIN!"


Or uh, I think I make enough money to live comfortably and focus on some things that really matter, like the people in my life?

IOW, fuck you, Scrooge McDuck.

Comment Signature
#67 by crash
2004-01-29 19:15:04
So how much do you make, YF?

And how much would it take to "live comfortably and focus on the people in your life"?

Bet the 2nd number is higher than the first.

So fuck you, too.

By this time tomorrow we can be doing BODY SHOTS off HOOKERS in some MEXICAN HELLHOLE
#68 by Your Friend
2004-01-29 19:17:47
$90,000/yr.  

And no, I'm pretty fucking comfortable.  I'm pretty sure I would be even if I were making $45k or so, I'd just have to live somewhere that wasn't San Diego and eat out less and maybe drive a Kia.  No biggie.

Comment Signature
#69 by CheesyPoof
2004-01-29 19:21:10
Mostly, this is just the latest management fad.  It'll work OK for a few companies, but a lot more are going to have egg on their face over the next 2-3 years when they realize that the dream they are being sold by the consulting companies who are advocating offshoring aren't the silver bullet they've been lead to believe.

Telcordia, formerly Bellcore (if either of those name mean anything to anyone), off shored a product to an Indian firm a few years ago when the whole telecom meltdown thing was going on.  Customers got pissed as the quality sucked and delivery times increased.  It got to the CEO level of bitching because they brought the project back onshore.
#70 by Hoe Muffin
2004-01-29 19:23:17
poontanger@hotmail.com
Couple of quick notes:

Crash, my personal belief is that the sorts of jobs that are being outsourced can roughly be classified as "commodity jobs" ie jobs wherein the end product is some form of commodity - thus hard sciences, engineering and programming are likely to be outsourced, whereas ad campaigns aren't. Maybe a programmer in India isn't as efficient as one American progammer, but I'd be willing to bet 2-3 are.


Regarding Housing: The American housing market is, to a large extent, largely subsidised by the government. There is almost no where else on the planet that you can get such a low fix rate APR for 20+ years. Sorta ridiculous, really.

I disagree. The globalization trend has done nothing but plunge developing countries in even greater national debts. Highly specialised industries completely depending on over-seas contracts, crop burning and free-trade zones. The globalization so far has been nothing but a brand-aware extension of gunboat diplomacy.


mgns- I don't think that there is necessarily a correlation between growth of wealth in a country and smaller national debts. The collapses of the Argentinean and Russian governments was due much more to awful government policies regarding bank loans and the like and speculators attacking the currencies then globalization. If you could clarify the points regarding industries and gunboat diplomacy, I'd appreciate it.
#71 by Your Friend
2004-01-29 19:26:05

Maybe a programmer in India isn't as efficient as one American progammer, but I'd be willing to bet 2-3 are.


You're falling into the same trap as these CEOs, have obviously never been a programmer, nor have you read the Mythical Man Month or Peopleware.

Comment Signature
#72 by Squeaky
2004-01-29 19:28:47
So what happens when R&D gets outsourced?

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#73 by BobJustBob
2004-01-29 19:30:37
Bob needs a job but can't find one. That's all I have to contribute to this topic.


OT: My sister has decided that she really wants to go to Asia this summer to do missionary work. Her first choice is China and her second choice is Thailand.

I'm thinking about collectiong Bailey's China Tales and presenting them to her as an example of why this is a bad idea.

Dood.
#74 by Hoe Muffin
2004-01-29 19:30:59
poontanger@hotmail.com
I freely admit that my programming knowledge is non-existent, which, thankfully, is why I am not in charge of any major tech company, or even responsible for the HR.
#75 by Ergo
2004-01-29 19:38:12
Interesting article that kind of ties in with this discussion. The author is unabashedly liberal, but he makes some excellent points.

Duff Man promises a lotta things. Oh, yeah!
DVDs
#76 by Your Friend
2004-01-29 19:41:48
Despite the best efforts of some people in the field, programming remains as much art as engineering.  Any attempts to assembly-line the process thus far have failed, sometimes spectacularly.  A really talented programmer will easily outperform 10 or so mediocre ones.

Comment Signature
#77 by Shadarr
2004-01-29 19:43:27
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I think the CEO's get blinded by the low wages and don't realize there are associated costs and difficulties.  The more complex a job is the less easy it is to outsource.  Factory jobs are no problem, but programming is a complex profession that any 8 year old off the street can't do.  The dev team at my company has been carefully put together, and each hire involved probably 3 months of resume screening and head-hunting.  Are they doing the same kind of due diligence in India, or are they following the factory model and hiring 20 college grads and a manager?  I suspect the latter, and I also suspect it won't work.  One good programmer is worth more than all the crappy ones in  Bangalore.
#78 by mgns
2004-01-29 19:45:10
If you could clarify the points regarding industries and gunboat diplomacy, I'd appreciate it.


Sure. When the colonies gained independence the colonial powers withdrew their forces only in exchange for very favorable trade agreements and loans of huge sums of money to sustain and expand infrastructure and whatnot. Hence the huge debts of third world countries. Latest horror-number I saw was about 8 dollars going out of the indebted countries for every one dollar of foreign aid and/or investment. (No source, feel free to ignore that number, I guess.)

This has forced third world governments into a very weak negotiation position, where western nations strong-arm them into opening up their national resources and work-force for hideous exploitation. When western interests says jump, debtors jump - no matter how bad the consequences in the long-run. The oil-fields in Nigeria comes to mind.

He leans on the hood telling racing stories, the kids call him Jimmy The Saint.
#79 by Jibble
2004-01-29 19:46:25
#68 Your Friend
$90,000/yr.

What do you do?

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#80 by Jibble
2004-01-29 19:47:27
#67 crash
So how much do you make, YF?

And how much would it take to "live comfortably and focus on the people in your life"?

Those two numbers are pretty much the same in my world.  Granted, I don't have a car payment right now, but that's because I've been driving the same car for five years.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#81 by mgns
2004-01-29 19:48:16
jibble,


#68 Your Friend
$90,000/yr.


What do you do?


It's very, very, degrading.

He leans on the hood telling racing stories, the kids call him Jimmy The Saint.
#82 by Your Friend
2004-01-29 19:48:24
I'm a "Senior Software Engineer".  The kind of person whose job will be going to India, never to return, any day now.  

Also, the number may seem a lot larger than it is in practice depending upon where you live; just like the idea of $200,000 house seems quaint to me.

Comment Signature
#83 by mgns
2004-01-29 19:48:52
... to fuck up craptags.

He leans on the hood telling racing stories, the kids call him Jimmy The Saint.
#84 by Hoe Muffin
2004-01-29 19:49:19
poontanger@hotmail.com
Part of the dangers of the MBA degree is that it teaches you to "quantify" things. Salary and productivity can be quantified. Skills of a programmer is a little more difficult to quantify. Which, coincidentally enough, is why I find it moronic to hire an MBA to run a company. People should rise in the ranks.
#85 by Your Friend
2004-01-29 19:50:43
At one point in my career, as it were, I was pulling in $120k/year, but I lived in New York City at the height of the 'boom' which means I still had to live in an apartment the size of a dog house.  Cost of living is funny like that.

Comment Signature
#86 by Bailey
2004-01-29 19:51:29
Bob

As much as I don't care what happens to you, since your sister is a relative unknown, I'd recommend Thailand. China is a godless country, so arguably missionaries are more needed there, but they really don't care for religion on the whole. Openly hostile don't care. Moreover, the Chinese hate Americans to a surprising extent, and avidly sympathize with the swarthy side of the recent limited skirmish in the Middle East.

Thailand's got some crazy pagan hoodoo religions, so I'm sure she can get her God on there without being beaten or spit upon for forcing her beliefs on others. Also, I'm sure she'll have a blast shaming the sex tourists.

Seriously, China is a bad idea. I met one Christian Chinese national in a city of six million, and his father was the minister for the only church in the whole city, so he was more or less obliged to attend.

Life without shame.
#87 by Charles
2004-01-29 19:51:40
www.bluh.org
In regards to "the middle class," this mythical construction of relative income shouldn't be (isn't?) a final resting place or a goal. It's the most transitory of the "classes" in America (which really isn't a class-based game, it's a skills-based one, imo), with more movement up out of it, and down through it, than staying-in-it.


Actually, I read an article recently by some economics guy who Knows Stuff, that said that more and more often, people aren't moving out of their class, and the US is moving back to the whole idea that you won't outpace your parents.

-chris
#88 by yotsuya
2004-01-29 19:51:46
My wife and I are looking to buy a $210,000 home on a quarter-acre home with the Estralla Mountains in the background. 5 bedroom, a den, house professionally wired for sound, video, and internet... It'll cost $1500 a month. We're strongly considering it.

That's a beautiful way to go. Shot by Yot. In more ways than one. -mgns
#89 by Charles
2004-01-29 19:53:54
www.bluh.org
Heh, I'm paying 1450$ a month for my friggin' rental condo.

-chris
#90 by Bailey
2004-01-29 19:57:31
Canadian.

Life without shame.
#91 by Shadarr
2004-01-29 19:57:43
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
I love that new FedEx ad where the guy says "I don't do shipping... I have an MBA"  and the woman says "Oh, then I'll have to show you how to do it."

Part of the reason for all the outsourcing hype and other unsound decisions is that corporations, and the MBA's that run them, are totally focused on making the next quarter's numbers and don't give much thought at all to what will benefit the company five years from now.  By outsourcing the dev team a company can save $80,000 per programmer (PNOOMA) but a year from now, the product will be quantitatively worse than it is now and sales will plummet.
#92 by Squeaky
2004-01-29 19:58:23
#88 yotsuya
My wife and I are looking to buy a $210,000 home on a quarter-acre home with the Estralla Mountains in the background. 5 bedroom, a den, house professionally wired for sound, video, and internet... It'll cost $1500 a month. We're strongly considering it.

Can I move in with you?

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#93 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:00:24
#82 Your Friend
I'm a "Senior Software Engineer".  The kind of person whose job will be going to India, never to return, any day now.  

Also, the number may seem a lot larger than it is in practice depending upon where you live; just like the idea of $200,000 house seems quaint to me.

Very true.  Cost of living generally has a huge impact on salaries.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#94 by Hoe Muffin
2004-01-29 20:00:54
poontanger@hotmail.com
Sure. When the colonies gained independence the colonial powers withdrew their forces only in exchange for very favorable trade agreements and loans of huge sums of money to sustain and expand infrastructure and whatnot. Hence the huge debts of third world countries. Latest horror-number I saw was about 8 dollars going out of the indebted countries for every one dollar of foreign aid and/or investment. (No source, feel free to ignore that number, I guess.)

This has forced third world governments into a very weak negotiation position, where western nations strong-arm them into opening up their national resources and work-force for hideous exploitation. When western interests says jump, debtors jump - no matter how bad the consequences in the long-run. The oil-fields in Nigeria comes to mind.


Of course, one argument one might make is that this is an example of how globalism still is justified in theory, but not in practice. Then again, if it is no good in practice, then it can't be a particularly useful theory.

However, I would like to stress that foreign debt is not necessarily the cause of meltdowns, rather it is largely due to poor lending by banks, corruption in the government, and of course, speculators attacking the currency. It is true that the WTO organization, and all the meetings in Doha, Cancun, etc. were set up to mediate tariff's and the like, but until the rich nations budge on agricultural policies (which are despicable) that protect their farmers, the poorest nations will continue to be hurt. That being said, I would argue that human rights conventions as well as public pressure from the home front has prevented Western countries from committing the attrocities of the British Empire during the peak of its colonialization phase. And I believe that in the aggregate, globalization, even in its imperfect form, has been a strong tool in reducing the overall level of absolute poverty: A report from the World Bank in 2001 appears to indicate as much.

If you're so inclined, you can purchase it here:

http://econ.worldbank.org/prr/structured_doc.php?sp=2477&st=&sd=2857

The Economist has a quickie summary of the topic:

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=898112
#95 by yotsuya
2004-01-29 20:01:06
Squeak-

Only if you feed the dogs, throw out the garbage, and become our security ninja.

Keep in that there are 6 of us in my family, so we NEED the room.

That's a beautiful way to go. Shot by Yot. In more ways than one. -mgns
#96 by Bailey
2004-01-29 20:02:20
Shadarr

That commercial made me question my consideration of getting a business degree. An MBA barely seems to get your foot in the door these days, everyone wants 3-5 years experience at a single location.

Life without shame.
#97 by Shadarr
2004-01-29 20:05:32
shadarr@yahoo.com http://digital-luddite.com
Squeaky,

If you want to buy a nice house for $150,000 CDN, move to Edmonton.  Personally, I think the cost of living here is worth it for the quality of life. But there is a certain allure to knowing that I could buy a house right now if I moved there.
#98 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:06:18
MBA looks like A+ looks like MCSE looks like DBA looks like CBT to a hiring manager.  You can list bullet points all day, but your experience and references will speak volumes more than any degree will.  It's been my experience that not all hiring departments realize this, but that an effective one will.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#99 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-29 20:11:44
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#97 Shadarr
Squeaky,

If you want to buy a nice house for $150,000 CDN, move to Edmonton.  Personally, I think the cost of living here is worth it for the quality of life. But there is a certain allure to knowing that I could buy a house right now if I moved there.

The drawback being, Edmonton.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#100 by Matt Perkins
2004-01-29 20:15:42
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
MBA looks like A+ looks like MCSE looks like DBA looks like CBT to a hiring manager.  You can list bullet points all day, but your experience and references will speak volumes more than any degree will.  It's been my experience that not all hiring departments realize this, but that an effective one will.


Of course, that depends upon the place.  I know places where MCSD is a god and places where College grads are shunned.  Each person has different ideas what works for them on a resume.

Personally, I'd agree.  I just went through a mess of resumes at my company and we hired some of them.  The ones we hired all had to show, before I'd even call them, that they had the experience I needed.  Of course, I was looking for specific key words and years with them, so some people sometimes slightly over estimated their skills.

"Good, good. Now, and here is where I'm going with this - I'll be fucked if I can remember how to farm."
- LP
#101 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:20:14
I think one major problem with companies these days is that they don't test people on their knowledge anymore.  Anyone who puts "Adobe Photoshop" on their resume should be required to come in and create something as part of the application process.  At the very start, give them 10 minutes to make a beveled button.  If they can't make the button, tell them to take a hike.  If they can, you can commence with your list of irrelevant and pointless leading questions that are designed to test personality more than actual skill.  I see way too many people who lie their asses off on their resume and work for months before someone realizes it.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#102 by Ashiran
2004-01-29 20:22:24
Rant follows:

The sad truth is ladies and gentlemen is that companies don't care about you the populace. They are only interested in extending their own existence. Ofcourse that's not what companies are for. Companies are here to supply you, the consumer, with (new) products so that we may create a continiously better world for ourselves. To ensure this noble cause keeps in motion it requires that the company doesn't go out of buisness.

Right...? Wrong.

You see according to free market theory any company that can't pull his weight is replaced by a new better one. So the production keeps existing anyway. However at some point in time for whatever reason companies became obsessed with "immortality". We all know that managment can and will ensure their survival by any means necessary. Even if this means conjuring money out of thin air a.k.a FRAUD. As you may be able to tell I'm opposed to any form of government aid for non goverment controlled companies.

Now while it's a company's good right to cut down costs by any legal means necessary I don't approve of outsourcing. While it's more money for the company it's less money for the nation as a whole. But then we come back to the first part again, companies don't care about you. Seeing this is pretty much a stable fact nowadays we can't blame them anymore. So who do we blame?

We blame you, the populace! You see, the populace elects the government and the governments they elect are usually quite clueless on what is best for their people. I'm actually of the belief that a whole slew of politicians (both in the US and Europe) have absolutly NO IDEA what a government exactly is for. They think it's about preventing bad things and promoting good things. It's not. It's about making sure your populace is taken care of, at a level fitting of your nation, AT ALL TIMES. To get back to the losts jobs part, it's not the governments task to create/keep jobs, it's the governments task to keep you afloat at a certain point. And that's the real problem here. People stare themselves blind on the number of jobs and therefore cry havoc when they vanish. Which isn't strange because if you are jobless for an extended period in this capitalist society you are fucked.

And being jobless will only get worse and worse for everyone, more and more things will be automated, more and more knowledge will be needed to have a unique position. If you're old, you're out of luck. If your knowledge is common now, you're out of luck. If you are somehow handicapped, you're out of luck. Nowadays there are always people or machines who work cheaper and/or better then you. So only jobs with very specialist deep knowlegde will stay. And a simple fact is that only a small number of people are intelligent enough to do such jobs.

The Wire article has a women asking what comes after knowledge in the farm, factory, knowledge train. If you read that as "basic knowledge, partial automation, advanced knowledge" I think you can see what comes next. That's right. FULL AUTOMATION. Outsourcing is just a slide. When everyone is made rich because of outsourcing the only way to do things cheaply will be with machines. And the capitalist society (with its completly dependency on people having jobs) will be completly unable to absorb this even though it's racing towards it at ever increasing speed. It's high time people to shape up and change the century old system and replace it with something more fitting like a Neo Essentialist (not to be confused with Essentialism) state or something.

Please disagree.
/Rant

"Someday, someone will best me. But it won't be today, and it won't be you."
#103 by Trolly McTroll
2004-01-29 20:22:31
"I like big cars, big boats, big motorcycles, big houses and big campfires. I believe the money I make belongs to me and my family, not some governmental stooge with a bad comb-over who wants to give it away to crack addicts for squirting out babies.

"I think that if you feel homosexuality is wrong, it is not a phobia, it is an opinion.

"I don't think being a minority makes you a victim of anything except numbers.The only things I can think of that are truly discriminatory are things like the United Negro College Fund, Jet Magazine, Black Entertainment Television, and Miss Black America.  Try to have things like the United Caucasian College Fund, Cloud Magazine, White Entertainment Television, or Miss White America; and see what happens.  Jesse Jackson will be knocking down your door.

"I have the right 'NOT' to be tolerant of others because they are different, weird, or tick me off.

"When 70% of the people who get arrested are black,  in cities where 70% of the population is black, that is not racial profiling, it is the Law of Probability.

"I know what sex is, and there are not varying degrees of it. If  I received sex from one of my subordinates in my office, it  wouldn't be a private matter or my personal business.  I would be  'FIRED' immediately!

"I believe that if you are selling me a milk shake,  a pack of cigarettes, a newspaper or a hotel room, you must do it in English!  As a matter of fact, if you want to be an American citizen, you should  have to speak English!

"My father and grandfather didn't die in vain so you can leave the countries you were born in to come over and disrespect ours.  I think the police should have every right to shoot your sorry self if you threaten them after they tell you to stop.  
If you can't understand the word 'freeze' or 'stop' in English, see the above lines.

"I feel much safer letting a machine with no political affiliation recount votes when needed.  I know what the definition of lying is.

"I don't think just because you were not born in this country, you are qualified for any special loan programs, government sponsored bank loans or tax breaks, etc., so you can open a hotel, coffee shop, trinket store, or any other business.

"We did not go to the aid of certain foreign countries and risk our lives in wars to defend their freedoms, so that decades later they could come over here and tell us our constitution is a living document; and open to their interpretations.

"I don't hate the rich.  I don't pity the poor. I know pro wrestling Is fake, but so are movies and television.  That doesn't stop you from watching them.

"I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.

"I think Bill Gates has every right to keep every  penny he made and continue to make more. If it ticks you off, go and invent the next operating system that's better, and put your name on the building. Ask your buddy that invented the Internet to help you.

"It doesn't take a whole village to raise a child right, but it does take a parent to stand up to the kid; and smack their little behinds when necessary, and say 'NO!'

"I think tattoos and piercing are fine if you want them, but please don't pretend they are a political statement.  And, please, stay home until that new lip ring heals.  I don't want to look at your ugly infected mouth as you serve me French fries!

"I am sick of 'Political Correctness.'  I know a lot of black people, and not a single one of them was born in Africa; so how can they be 'African-Americans'?  Besides, Africa is a continent.  I don't go around saying I am a European-American because my great, great, great, great, great, great grandfather was from Europe.  I am proud to be from America and
nowhere else.

You Know You Envy the soul of Trolly McTroll
#104 by chris
2004-01-29 20:22:39
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
We test people. I specifically developed two HTML tests for all of our potential web employees, from jr. to sr. level. Most other companies I'm familiar with do similar things.

-chris
#105 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-29 20:25:50
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#104 chris
We test people. I specifically developed two HTML tests for all of our potential web employees, from jr. to sr. level. Most other companies I'm familiar with do similar things.

-chris

Are these tests you have to complete while sitting there in the interview, or can you do them on your own time and send them in?  It seems to me that the first way is sort of pointless ... the focus should be on the persons ability to problem solve, not recall information off the top of their heads.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#106 by Trolly McTroll
2004-01-29 20:26:46
#101 Jibble
At the very start, give them 10 minutes to make a beveled button. If they can't make the button, tell them to take a hike. If they can, you can commence with your list of irrelevant and pointless


The problem is most middle managers are not experienced themselves and either got that job by sucking dick or humping ass and are too afraid and stupid to ask the proper questions to begin with.

You Know You Envy the soul of Trolly McTroll
#107 by Trolly McTroll
2004-01-29 20:28:38
#105 Warren Marshall
#104 chris
We test people. I specifically developed two HTML tests for all of our potential web employees, from jr. to sr. level. Most other companies I'm familiar with do similar things.

-chris

Are these tests you have to complete while sitting there in the interview, or can you do them on your own time and send them in?  It seems to me that the first way is sort of pointless ... the focus should be on the persons ability to problem solve, not recall information off the top of their heads.


and that is why you're not an HR executive and push pixels all day monkey boy

You Know You Envy the soul of Trolly McTroll
#108 by chris
2004-01-29 20:28:48
cwb@shaithis.com http://www.cerebraldebris.com
Warren -

Tests first. Interview later. We base who we're going to interview on how they handled the tests. The tests are emailed to them, and they can take as much time as they want (within reason... if it takes you three weeks to carve up a site I can do in twenty minutes, you're not right for the job).

-chris
#109 by Warren Marshall
2004-01-29 20:30:12
http://www.wantonhubris.com/
#108 chris
Warren -

Tests first. Interview later. We base who we're going to interview on how they handled the tests. The tests are emailed to them, and they can take as much time as they want (within reason... if it takes you three weeks to carve up a site I can do in twenty minutes, you're not right for the job).

-chris

Ah cool.  That's perfect, thanks.

We do the same thing with artists ... we send them an assignment and see (a) how long it takes to complete and (b) how they did it.

"Cheap Garbage Disposal Canít Handle Femur"
#110 by Squeaky
2004-01-29 20:30:13
#97 Shadarr
Squeaky,

If you want to buy a nice house for $150,000 CDN, move to Edmonton.  Personally, I think the cost of living here is worth it for the quality of life. But there is a certain allure to knowing that I could buy a house right now if I moved there.

But I'd have to live in Edmonton.

Got throat problems? Why not try sucking on a Fisherman's Friend!
dvds
#111 by Charles
2004-01-29 20:39:14
www.bluh.org
Living in Edmonton is a fate worse than death.  I know, because I'd choose death before I'd choose to move back to Edmonton.

-chris
#112 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:40:36
#108 chris
Warren -

Tests first. Interview later. We base who we're going to interview on how they handled the tests. The tests are emailed to them, and they can take as much time as they want (within reason... if it takes you three weeks to carve up a site I can do in twenty minutes, you're not right for the job).

-chris

I would think that a reasonable combination of "tests first" and "verification tests during the interview" would be an ideal solution, as it would assure that the applicant had actually done the test on their own.  Seems to me like it would be really easy to weed out shitty coders if you asked them to do a simple <TABLE> layout in hand-coded HTML.  I'm consistently amazed at how many web developers can't actually do a two-column, two-row table with some spanning by hand.

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
#113 by UncleJeet
2004-01-29 20:45:08
The problems with the economy go far beyond the concept of outsourcing.  At the root of the evil is America's arbitrary system of valuing money, and its cure-all behavior of just printing more and trying hard not to cause a huge rise in inflation that makes everything come crumbling down.

Money needs to be backed by something with a specific value.  We're kept afloat, more often than not, by manipulations of value that are based in nothing more than the notion that we need to get things to a certain place, and what values should we move around to get there.  The problem is, this type of behavior is by its nature, destructive to a stable economy and there's really no stopping it once you've been doing it for awhile.  It's sort of like a drug addict that continues to use after he no longer enjoys or receives the high, just because he cannot tolerate the withdrawls.

Ignoring all of the legal and constitutional issues concerning America's banking system, it's just a bad idea.  It's fine if you do indeed have a global economy that is all under the same umbrella, and the dollar has acted as that umbrella since the beginning but it can't sustain things forever.

That said, I am completely opposed to a "global economy" and one world government concepts - and I don't understand this strange compulsion to constantly change everything.  Concepts and methods that have proven themselves to be sound and positive should not be abandoned for the sake of some idealistic and flawed concept that all the world should unite under one banner, or at least have completely open boarders for trade.

Tax stuff coming in, tax stuff coming out, cut deals where it has to, and keep the boarders of the country safe and relationships with other countries beneficial with that money - this is the role of the national government, or should be anyway.  The government has no business aiding, funding, underwriting, or in any other way supporting the private sector and the individuals and businesses within it.  However, it does have business with keeping its wealth at home and so wouldn't be likely to allow outsourcing of any sort just for the sake of saving a company money.

The answer is not more government, more socialism inspired policies, or any sort of federal regulation of domestic affairs.  We have the most liberal of american presidents in recent history in office right now under the guise of being a conservative.  The country's already been fooled by this, though, so my hope of people ever waking up and working to reverse the trend towards complete governmental control of the citizenry grows smaller every damned day.

I'm fighting terrorism by playing violent video games!
#114 by Jibble
2004-01-29 20:48:42
#113 UncleJeet
We have the most liberal of american presidents in recent history in office right now under the guise of being a conservative.

What?

If I had to choose between the '80s classics "Beat Street" or "Breakin'" for a prestigious award, I'd probably have to go with the latter, since its sequel introduced the mind-shattering concept of marrying *electricity* with the boogaloo.
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