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The US Election and Sundry Politics Thread
September 18th 2008, 01:50 CEST by Jamie

We're getting into the thick of the election season. This will keep it all in once place. Even all you foreigners are welcome to come in.
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Home » Topic: The US Election and Sundry Politics Thread

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#50 by FoRmaT
2008-09-18 23:06:55
I had to get that off my chest.

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#51 by Jibble
2008-09-18 23:12:22
Guys, please, don't get the nazi all worked up. You know how they get.

Lady, people aren't chocolates. But you know what they are, mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling.

Blog. 190 lbs.  10 to go.
#52 by TreeFrog
2008-09-18 23:44:25
For what it's worth, I think G-Man was having a go at Spain and Germany rather than Format.

If you think universal state-supplied healthcare is all that you should try going to hospital in Britain. You're lucky not to come out with MRSA. Private companies = profit motive = competitors taking all your patients if you perform badly. I'm not seeing where the catch is.

Moat.
#53 by gaggle
2008-09-18 23:47:41
I'm lead to believe that s'long as you got the monies the US system is kind of great. More money you got, more greater it becomes. Which, naturally, is the inherent deep-flawed friggin' problem with the whole thing.

"Braid breaks one of my personal most fundamental rules of games design within minutes of starting - they have timed puzzles."
#54 by Shadarr
2008-09-19 00:35:19
shadarr@gmail.com http://digital-luddite.com
I'm lead to believe that s'long as you got the monies the US system is kind of great.

Despite spending the most per capita on healthcare, the US doesn't actually get the best results.  Even discounting the people without insurance, Americans get lower quality of care than a lot of countries.

Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
#55 by BobJustBob
2008-09-19 00:36:12
Didn't you see Sicko? The whole movie is about various people with health insurance who were screwed by the system.

"That's not to say that games shouldn't have stories, I just think the story should be the player's story, and find more ways to celebrate and promote that, rather than the game designer's story that you're imposing upon them." - Will Wright
#56 by mgns
2008-09-19 01:08:09
Private companies = profit motive = competitors taking all your patients if you perform badly.

Health care is unbelievably expensive to provide. There is simply no way for the average working adult to pay for what we have come to believe is a decent standard of care in a private system.

A fist bump? A pound? A terrorist fist jab?
#57 by bago
2008-09-19 01:50:59
manga_Rando@hotmail.com
Fun game. Put in the word "think" every time Sarah Palin says "blink".


Palin, expressing confidence in her readiness, said, “You can’t think.” So -- “I didn’t.”
 
Gibson pressed her, “And you didn't say to yourself, ‘Am I experienced enough? Am I ready? Do I know enough about international affairs? Do I -- will I feel comfortable enough on the national stage to do this?’”
 
“I didn't hesitate, no,” Palin responded.
 
“Didn't that take some hubris?” Gibson asked.
 
“I answered him yes because I have the confidence in that readiness and knowing that you can't think, you have to be wired in a way of being so committed to the mission, the mission that we're on -- reform of this country and victory in the war -- you can't think. So I didn't think then, even when asked to run as his running mate.”


Sabrina Poirier, a student at Pensacola who withdrew in 1997, was disciplined for what is known on the campus as "optical intercourse" — staring too intently into the eyes of a member of the opposite sex. This is also referred to as "making eye babies."
#58 by G-Man
2008-09-19 01:51:57
FoRmaT: I didn't post my snarky comment to highlight what a lazy worthless welfare-loving stay at home father you are. I actually meant to point out that the socialized medicine you enjoy in countries like Spain and Germany make it more expensive for employers to operate, and that therefore, they employ less people and/or pay lower wages. Hence your dificulty in finding work.

TreeFrog in #52 got it right. But misunderstandings aside, I'll try to remember that you are a real human being on the other end of the keyboard and avoid needlessly antagonizing you in the future.
#59 by Shadarr
2008-09-19 01:53:18
shadarr@gmail.com http://digital-luddite.com
Lies.

Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
#60 by LPMiller
2008-09-19 01:57:02
lpmiller@gotapex.com http://www.gotapex.com
both systems have major downsides. Neither is hearts and flowers. And competition does not seem to make better hospitals, or create any kind of real price difference.

I dunno that we could ever do a system like canada or Britain - too many damn people. But we sure should be able to provide something that fills the holes.

"Testiculos habet et bene pendentes" - "He has testicles, and they dangle nicely."

"LP, your big balls are a religion." - Jibble
#61 by Shadarr
2008-09-19 02:12:27
shadarr@gmail.com http://digital-luddite.com
mgns (#56):
Health care is unbelievably expensive to provide. There is simply no way for the average working adult to pay for what we have come to believe is a decent standard of care in a private system.

lolwut? Whether it's through taxes or health insurance or taking out a second mortgage to pay for emergency surgery, it's the same collection of people paying for the healthcare system.  One of the benefits of a socialized system is that your payments are amortized over your entire life, so when you're young and healthy and working you are effectively banking money for when you're old and sickly and on a fixed income, something people don't generally do on their own (just look at defined benefit vs self-managed pension plans).

Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
#62 by CheesyPoof
2008-09-19 03:58:02
#38 by Dumdeedum
Woohoo, for the first time in weeks I'm all caught up on my 'crapping!  No more little yellow icons mocking me from the archive page.  It does look like I missed some Ng Yo fun though, which is a shame but I'll survive.

Okay, carry on.

Why, where were you? Hhhmmm? Were you WoW'ing? You were, weren't you? You filthy bastard. Admit it!

#46 by Jamie
Oh, Photobucket is blocked here at work. Great. Now the Eye of Sauron (AKA the IT Department) will turn its blazing gaze upon me.

Pffftt. Ever since they put up the blocking shit at work I'll get one or two innocuous things a day that are blocked. Yesterday it was google docs.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#63 by CheesyPoof
2008-09-19 04:01:37
#58 by G-Man
FoRmaT: I didn't post my snarky comment to highlight what a lazy worthless welfare-loving stay at home father you are. I actually meant to point out that the socialized medicine you enjoy in countries like Spain and Germany make it more expensive for employers to operate, and that therefore, they employ less people and/or pay lower wages. Hence your dificulty in finding work.

TreeFrog in #52 got it right. But misunderstandings aside, I'll try to remember that you are a real human being on the other end of the keyboard and avoid needlessly antagonizing you in the future.

That's as close to an apology that you're going to get, Format, so you better like it.

But I thought as TreeFrog did when reading it.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#64 by Matt Perkins
2008-09-19 04:56:04
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
That may be the most apology I've ever seen from G-Man....

"some of those words want to be other words." - LP
"the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum
#65 by None-1a
2008-09-19 09:19:42
#55 by BobJustBob
Didn't you see Sicko? The whole movie is about various people with health insurance who were screwed by the system.


ah but which part of the system screwed them? Most doctors and hospitals are trying their damnedest to provide high quality care whil insurance companies are trying their damnedest to not pay for it.

#60 by LPMiller
But we sure should be able to provide something that fills the holes.


Unfortunately that's what will happen, and filling the holes will have a whole new set of holes that'll make the system suck just as bad.

Don't forget garnishes such as: Fish shaped solid waste.
#66 by mgns
2008-09-19 10:47:54
lolwut? Whether it's through taxes or health insurance or taking out a second mortgage to pay for emergency surgery, it's the same collection of people paying for the healthcare system.  One of the benefits of a socialized system is that your payments are amortized over your entire life, so when you're young and healthy and working you are effectively banking money for when you're old and sickly and on a fixed income, something people don't generally do on their own (just look at defined benefit vs self-managed pension plans).

What do you mean lolwut? You explained it to yourself with the rest of the post. Also, in a socialised healthcare system, insurance companies do not add to the cost.

I dunno that we could ever do a system like canada or Britain - too many damn people.

The ratio of sick people to taxpayers should be the same, so why not?

A fist bump? A pound? A terrorist fist jab?
#67 by FoRmaT
2008-09-19 11:43:08
Thank you G-Man.

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#68 by None-1a
2008-09-19 12:34:09
mgns it's not the amount of money that's the problem, it's keeping enough doctors to see all the people and makeing sure they're truely where they need to be. We already have a UK like public care system with VA hospitals which wastes a fuck ton of money just trying to keep access resonable (for example the local VA hospital doesn't see enough traffic to warrent inpatient services but it's staying open simply because traveling to another location for it would be unreasonable).

Even Canada public insurance system has problems with wait times for care, long waits for test results or noncritical surgery, and finding a doctor in the middle of no where. The only time waiting is a problem in the US is with the ER which tend to see more people simply becuase they can never refuse care. Granted we're starting to see the same problems popup now that most private insurance uses some form of managed care.

Don't forget garnishes such as: Fish shaped solid waste.
#69 by FoRmaT
2008-09-19 13:28:34
I can't imagine living in a system without public healthcare. How does that even work? What happens if I get cancer and need treatment? Am I fucked if I have no money? That's just not right. Especially not in a country as rich as the US.

In Spain, healthcare isn't even mentioned when you sign up to work. You get that even with minimum wage jobs. They'll say "you'll earn 1000€", but on top of that the business pays your social security, which is something like 180-250€ or so, IIRC.

Whenever you stop working, you are covered by national healthcare for the next six months. If you don't have any income, you basically sign a few forms and then you'll get healthcare for free.

But it's not really working so well, at least in Tenerife, which I hear is some kind of worst case scenario in Spain. The south of the island has no public hospital, only privately oned ones, plus national health centres, where you can go to a doctor and get a diagnose or simple treatments that don't involve hospitalisation. When you have to go to a hospital, you have to go the other end of the island, and that place is as busy as a bee hive, because there are so many people going to just this one place.

And there are more and more people coming all the time, as the Canaries have been target for huge amounts of latin and morrocan inmigration for over a decade, but the government doesn't get off their asses. Canaries were sponsored by Brussels for a long long time, with the EU paying for huge projects that in the end never get realised, like big wide roads with hundreds of lamp posts, in the middle of nowhere that don't lead anywhere because when the road was finished, the project was halted. Millions of Euros wasted. Spain, two or three years ago, said that they were writing black numbers and had a superabit and economical growth stronger than even Germany, but still people were only getting paid 700-900€ wages for 48 or more of weeky work. Maybe it's because your typical inmigrant from latin America or morocco will "do anything for any price" and that has contributed largely to ruin the wages. At least there is still a minimum wage, of about 600€ or so. And I had about 9% tax retentions, and if you earn less than 11k € per year, you don't have to declare for taxes. You can, though, and maybe get something back.

Btw, because of THE CRISIS, public employment in Spain has been reduced by 70%. So, all the time your population increases, but you have no schools, hospitals, courts etc. to keep up. What they do have is an insane amount of police. Really, in Tenerife police seem to grow on trees or something because you can't walk or drive two minutes without seeing the cops. And they'll do traffic controls everywhere, everyday, to keep the money from all those fines for not having insurance or your MOT done coming in. That's all they seem to do.

A private insurance, in Spain, for a ~30 year old man is about 700€ per year, and for a ~30 year old woman is about 1000€. You can have a cheaper insurance, where you can't chose where you get treated, and you can also have a more expensive one where you could chose to get treatment from a specialist in the US.

Germany doesn't have minimum wages. Here you have what they call "minijobs" where you work for, say 9 hrs. a week and earn 400€ monthly, and the the employer has to pay very little for employing you and you get no healthcare from that job, but can get it by applying for it at the social office. They are doing that instead of normal part time jobs, which are becoming a thing of the past.


Sorry for my unstructured rant.

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#70 by gaggle
2008-09-19 14:30:15
#69 by FoRmaT
Am I fucked if I have no money? That's just not right.

I'll go off on a tangent now.


I always find myself slightly stumbling at this argument. I don't disagree mind you, that's not what I'm saying, I just like to… ponder the implications. I think because it's such a vast disregard of how nature works everywhere else. It's interesting we do that.

"Braid breaks one of my personal most fundamental rules of games design within minutes of starting - they have timed puzzles."
#71 by FoRmaT
2008-09-19 14:36:40
Gaggle, I think it's one thing to say "I have the right to own X, my government should pay for it", and a whole other thing to say "I have a disease and need help". Whatever happened to the Hippocratic Oath?

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#72 by FoRmaT
2008-09-19 14:43:10
And, why is it fair that people without recourses get legal aid but no medical aid? Lawyers want to make money, too...

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#73 by None-1a
2008-09-19 14:53:39
#69 by FoRmaT
I can't imagine living in a system without public healthcare. How does that even work? What happens if I get cancer and need treatment? Am I fucked if I have no money?


It depends, most states have some form of insurance for people with low incomes. Assumeing you don't qualify most doctors offer some form of financeing, usualy through a bank offering low interest guaranteed loans but some will do it directly. Those that can't afford the payments file bankruptcy, which is why medical costs are the biggest reason for it.

Finally there's charity care. A good number of cites have state ran or not-for-profit free clinics avalible (usualy for people with no income or poverty line incomes). Some doctors and hospitals offer to write off a portion to all of the fees for the low income. There are also groups that will provide money to help in covering some of the costs.

With cancer you'd likely be looking at some being writen off by the providers, some being covered by cancer related charities, and the rest getting financed with a very high probablity of bankruptcy.

Don't forget garnishes such as: Fish shaped solid waste.
#74 by gaggle
2008-09-19 15:58:37
#72 by FoRmaT
And, why is it fair that people without recourses get legal aid but no medical aid? Lawyers want to make money, too...

Indeed sir.

"Braid breaks one of my personal most fundamental rules of games design within minutes of starting - they have timed puzzles."
#75 by CheesyPoof
2008-09-19 16:40:38
#72 by FoRmaT

And, why is it fair that people without recourses get legal aid but no medical aid? Lawyers want to make money, too...

Those lawyers suck and plead out their cases. It would be like going to a Dr. with a broken arm and they cut it off. For good lawyering, OJ (1) style, you need the money.

No such aid exists for civil cases anyway.

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#76 by Jibble
2008-09-19 17:05:07
One might argue that shitty care is in some cases better than no care.

I can't imagine universal health care taking root in this country even if Congress manages to pass something. The only hope for such a system would be for people to become so dependent on it that it turns into a social security style third rail for politicians.

Lady, people aren't chocolates. But you know what they are, mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling.

Blog. 190 lbs.  10 to go.
#77 by lwf
2008-09-19 17:59:16
Your country is fucked dude.

Once bread becomes toast, it can never go back. Wii.
#78 by Matt Perkins
2008-09-19 18:03:07
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
The statement before about having money in America being the key is absolutely correct and it applies across the board.

In America, if you get sick and you don't have money, you end up with bills on top of bills. Hundreds of thousands of dollars...assuming you do get treatment. The same goes for having kids and having insurance. You know how much my last kid cost me? Well, out of pocket, nothing. Do you know how much the hospital charged me? 6k...if I could pay in 90 days. 12k if I couldn't. No fucking joke.

With insurance it probably would have run me about $500. Except my job at the time couldn't afford the insurance since we were a small company. So we got fucked. Twice because we couldn't pay it off fast.


I can't speak for other countries, but in America, if you don't have money, you're going to have problems. You may not get well educated, you may not get good health care, and god forbid you can't work, you'll be screwed. Oh, and lets not even talk about our courts or laws and how much they point to having money as a necessity to getting fair treatment.

We, as Americans, are absolutely screwing ourselves. The priorities should be education (if you can't name ten reasons off the top of your head why this is true, you're dumb), preventive health care, and scientific research on a whole host of things. Our government has sold and is still selling these and other important parts of normally government run systems off to private corporations and everyone and everything is suffering because of it.

/mini rant

:)

"some of those words want to be other words." - LP
"the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum
#79 by FoRmaT
2008-09-19 18:37:47
The hospital bill when my kid was born was about 1800€. That paid for some time for my wife in that jacuzzi-like bathtub, epidurial anaesthetics, the doctor assisting birth, and four nights in the hospital including food, exams to the baby, diapers, etc. The insurance covered everything.

The health system in the US looks genuinely sad to me. I still have that fantasy of living in the USA inside of my head. My hope would be that speaking three languages would help me score a job in a hotel or as secretary of some business that works with Germans or latin America. Something like that. But seeing that in a worst case scenario I might not be able to afford medical care for my son or my wife is not a nice thought at all. Well, in my case I always could return to Germany and be attended here, but sometimes things have to be done inmediately, and that's what scares me.

How much does a normal insurance for a ~30 year old female cost in the US? And what about a kid?

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#80 by FoRmaT
2008-09-19 18:44:57
To add to what was done when my son was born: my wife had some bad liver values and for the last two months or so she had to go to the hospital every two days, to have blood tests done and to get on that thingy that monitors the baby's heartbeat. I have lost count of the total number of times she had that thing put on.

It's still amazing to me that all of this cost me absolutely nothing, and I know I haven't really done anything to deserve it, and I'm deeply deeply grateful for the excellent medical attention we got.

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#81 by jjohnsen
2008-09-19 19:13:39
http://www.johnsenclan.com
Someone earlier in the thread mentioned mortality rate or something is lower in the U.S. even though we pay so much for health care.  Is that right?  My Google skills must be lacking, I couldn't find anything that says that.  I know many people have told me that same thing, is it right?

#82 by Jibble
2008-09-19 19:21:18
...god forbid you can't work, you'll be screwed.

Oh, come on. Right wingers keep telling me you can live like a king on welfare! Tax payers are apparently financing fancy cars for these "poor" people, to hear them tell it.

Lady, people aren't chocolates. But you know what they are, mostly? Bastards. Bastard-coated bastards with bastard filling.

Blog. 190 lbs.  10 to go.
#83 by Matt Perkins
2008-09-19 21:53:48
wizardque@yahoo.com http://whatwouldmattdo.com/
Jibble (#82):
...god forbid you can't work, you'll be screwed.

Oh, come on. Right wingers keep telling me you can live like a king on welfare! Tax payers are apparently financing fancy cars for these "poor" people, to hear them tell it.

I have a bridge and some great swamp land to sell you!

"some of those words want to be other words." - LP
"the concept that a happy worker is a productive worker is hardly an entry from Matt's Big Book Of Things The Fairies Said." - Dum
#84 by FoRmaT
2008-09-19 21:55:04
Jefferson!

"Action stars of two decades ago shot .44 bullets out of their cocks. Honestly, if me and Charles Bronson were in the same room I'd kill myself just to make sure he didn't hurt me."
#85 by Greg
2008-09-19 22:21:54
I paid $80 for an $8000 emergency room visit.

#86 by Fugazi(werking)
2008-09-19 22:25:07
HAX!

#87 by Shadarr
2008-09-19 22:57:22
shadarr@gmail.com http://digital-luddite.com
Nice one, I lol'd.

Witnesses in the house heard Jones say "why did you pee on me Pooh Bear?" A few moments later, the witness heard the son say "Mama you done stabbed me."
#88 by Dumdeedum
2008-09-21 19:10:18
http://www.dumdeedum.com
Why, where were you? Hhhmmm? Were you WoW'ing? You were, weren't you? You filthy bastard. Admit it!

There may have been some isolated instances of WoWery, it's true, but I didn't swallow.

In truth, most of my 'crap time has been eaten up with emailing the mumblemumbleWoWgirlmumblemumble rather than WoW itself.

MP3 Of The Week: Alton Ellis - Bless You.mp3 (?)
#89 by G-Man
2008-09-21 19:57:50
Has anyone linked the appropriate Pure Pwnage episode yet?
#90 by gaggle
2008-09-21 21:13:05
Your adventure continues, hooray!

"Braid breaks one of my personal most fundamental rules of games design within minutes of starting - they have timed puzzles."
#91 by Ergo
2008-09-21 21:21:19
WoWgirl? Is Dum trying to tell us that he's talking (actually, emailing, which hardly counts) to a girl? I don't believe it for one fucking second.

Invention is the Green Goblin of Necessary Lemonade.

--Flowers
#92 by anaqer
2008-09-21 21:29:08
Well, he sure as hell isn't making comic reviews!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominoes will fall like a house of cards. Checkmate!
#93 by jjohnsen
2008-09-21 21:35:20
http://www.johnsenclan.com
He said he met a girl in WOW, but hasn't gone into how the relationship is going.

#94 by TreeFrog
2008-09-21 21:42:37
Don't these relationships always go swimmingly until one party discovers the other party is the size of a house?

Moat.
#95 by CheesyPoof
2008-09-21 21:44:45
How much time can email take up, unless you're really, really, slow?

<Hugin_len> Basically, cheesy doesn't have awful taste in music, he's simply very white.
#96 by Greg
2008-09-21 21:46:24
No, TreeFrog, they usually go swimmingly until one party discovers the other party is not the sex they claimed to be.

#97 by m0nty
2008-09-22 00:17:45
http://tinfinger.blogspot.com
Maybe for Dum that wouldn't be an issue.
#98 by gaggle
2008-09-22 00:29:50
#95 by CheesyPoof
How much time can email take up, unless you're really, really, slow?

Girls write the longest emails, it takes time!

"Braid breaks one of my personal most fundamental rules of games design within minutes of starting - they have timed puzzles."
#99 by TreeFrog
2008-09-22 01:21:01
gaggle (#98):
#95 by CheesyPoof
How much time can email take up, unless you're really, really, slow?

Girls write the longest emails, it takes time!

Now Dum's a girl? Man, this relationship is complex.

Moat.
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Home » Topic: The US Election and Sundry Politics Thread

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